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Ethiomonarchist

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Registered: 11/15/07
Posts: 4,365
Reply with quote  #1 

Let's continue the spirited debate on colonialism here...


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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
royalcello

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Registered: 05/24/06
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Reply with quote  #2 
Thanks.  For reference, the original discussion starts here.

For the record, I used to hold views similar to those of NewYorker, but have moved closer to those of Ethiomonarchist, though I'm still inclined to defend the Old Order (which obviously included colonialism) from politically correct leftist critics less thoughtful and balanced than he is.

Even those primarily concerned with European monarchies ought to consider that colonial rivalries undoubtedly contributed to the tensions that laid the groundwork for World War I.  And we all know what that did.
ProudCanadian

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Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 1,289
Reply with quote  #3 
If you insist. All right.

Pros:
It brought technology to the colonised areas.
It widened markets.
It brought Christianity to colonised areas. (let's hope they give it back)

ProudCanadian

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Reply with quote  #4 
The worst thing about colonialism was that the UN ended it, causing most of the problems the world is facing or has faced recently. (Vietnam, Rhodesia, Darfur, Somaliland, Pakistan, et cetera)
ProudCanadian

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Thanks.  For reference, the original discussion starts here.


Good idea. Putting in that link, that is.

Ethiomonarchist

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Registered: 11/15/07
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Reply with quote  #6 
...and even worse, the emergence of former soldiers of the colonial armies seizing power and causing untold misery, kelptocracy and decay (Idi Amin Dada, Mobutu Sese Seko, Bokassa the Terrible), the emergence of power hungry and blood thirsty rebel leaders with the sponsorship of one or the other side of the east/west confrontaion (Ghadafi of Libya, Mengistu of Ethiopia, Mugabe of Zimbabwe).

Royalcello,

I understand what you are saying about defending colonialism against the PC crowd.  I once was in a African Studies class years ago here in New York where my fellow students were in raptures about the future fall of racialist rule in South Africa.  They were going on and on about the paradise that was coming once the Botha government fell and black rule came to Pretoria.  There was only one other student in the class from Africa, a young Bugandan named Peter.  Peter got up in the class and said to the class:

"Please return to reality.  Just because blacks come to power does not mean life will become paradise for the blacks of South Africa.  Look across the continent and you will see there are only three types of African rulers today.
Type A) The Butchers.
Type B) The Thieves.
Type C) The Combination Butcher/Thieves."
 
I cried out "hear hear" and the class was much more subdued after that.  After all who would know better than two Africans who had to flee the rule of Idi Amin Dada and Mengistu Haile Mariam.


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The Lion of Judah hath prevailed.

Ethiopia stretches her hands unto God (Quote from Psalm 68 which served as the Imperial Motto of the Ethiopian Empire)

"God and history shall remember your judgment." (Quote from Emperor Haile Selassie I's speech to the League of Nations to plead for assistance against the Italian Invasion, 1936.)
royalcello

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Registered: 05/24/06
Posts: 6,401
Reply with quote  #7 
From On This Day (now deleted there):

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorker

If done correctly white and black can live together well. Rhodesia is my favorite example. Look what colonialism did for that country!
BaronVonServers

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Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 11,942
Reply with quote  #8 
The 'Protectorate' plan seems to me to be the 'most reasonable' and if it had actually been followed much of the misery during both colonial and post-colonial rule would have been avoided.

The Europeans would have had their 'grand game' but the basic underlying infrastructure wouldn't have been destroyed. 

Look to William I - he replaced the Earls, but for the most part the local hundred courts and other 'local government' institutions were retained.  Equal wisdom in sub-Saharan Africa would have left the day-to-day governance of the people in the hands of the traditional authorities.  When the Europeans grew tired of their 'game', the natives would have had schools, roads, AND local native instruments of governance based on their own traditions (most likely) adapted to the conditions under which they would operate.

(I know not really pro-and-con, but I'm trying to get into the spirit of the discussion....)


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KYMonarchist

Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 4,853
Reply with quote  #9 

Quote:
Originally Posted by royalcello
From On This Day (now deleted there):

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorker

If done correctly white and black can live together well. Rhodesia is my favorite example. Look what colonialism did for that country!

Is this guy for real?!?!?!?


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"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana
NewYorker

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Registered: 11/27/08
Posts: 737
Reply with quote  #10 
It was a very stable country until communist organized and trained forces began a long running insurgency under the Rhodesian government.

Then the United Kingdom threw some of its bravest subjects who it once exhorted to do the job of empire under the rug and abandoned them to Mugabe and his thugs.

May God Save the Queen of Rhodesia.
ProudCanadian

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Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 1,289
Reply with quote  #11 
Um, the whites declared independence. Mugabe then took over.
BaronVonServers

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Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 11,942
Reply with quote  #12 
Well, not quite.
The whites threw out the queen.  (became Rhodesia, not Southern Rhodesia anymore) 
Had a Long Fight with the Commies.
Started to look like an 'eventual losing deal'
Formed Coalition (now republic of Zimbabwe-Rhodesia)
Submitted to the Queen, new coalition Government formed.  (Now  Southern Rhodesia Again)
Released as independent republic (Now just  Zimbabwe)
Things go OK for a while.

Then the commies come back.
Cue torment.



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"In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas"

I am NOT an authorized representative of my Government.

Learn more about the Dominion of British West Florida at http://dbwf.net
Peter

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Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 5,765
Reply with quote  #13 

They didn't throw out the Queen straight away. The Rhodesian Declaration of Independence was modelled on the US one, except that it ended God Save the Queen. She however declined to be Queen of a rebellious colony, and after four years it declared itself a republic.

phil

Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 305
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProudCanadian:
The worst thing about colonialism was that the UN ended it, causing most of the problems the world is facing or has faced recently. (Vietnam, Rhodesia, Darfur, Somaliland, Pakistan, et cetera)

What the.........? The UN never ended colonialism. The European powers went bankrupt after WWII. As for Vietnam, the French got kicked out.

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A monarchist that's not into creating new dynasties or seeing monarchs in other countries, is simply one thing. A REPUBLICAN!!! - Phil Brown

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ProudCanadian

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Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 1,289
Reply with quote  #15 
Fine. The worst part was its end. The UN encouraged decolonisation.

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